Episode 4
S1:EP4 Jim Tabuchi - The Serial Social Entrepreneur
Unlocking Wisdom: Jim Tabuchi's Journey from Internment Camps to Values-Based Leadership
Dive into a captivating episode of the Mindful Mutiny Podcast as we delve into the remarkable life story of Jim Tabuchi. Join us as we explore Jim's profound journey – from his family's history in American Japanese Internment Camps during World War II to his trailblazing career at Hewlett-Packard and his bold decision to become a serial entrepreneur upon retiring at just 42.
In this episode, Jim shares how he chose to walk a path guided by his unwavering values, refusing to compromise them for financial gain. Discover the power of financial security intertwined with living a values-based life, and how making decisions rooted in what truly matters can elevate one above mediocrity.
Witness the transformational insights of a man who not only prioritizes his community but also stands as an embodiment of leadership development. Jim's wisdom shines through as he illuminates the art of maintaining positivity in the face of adversity.
Join us in this thought-provoking conversation with the wise and inspirational Jim Tabuchi, a testament to the extraordinary potential of living a life aligned with one's values, fostering positive change, and leaving a legacy that transcends challenges. Tune in now to embark on a journey of empowerment and enlightenment.
Transcript
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Alright.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: 5, 4, 3.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Welcome to the mindful mutiny. Podcast. I'm Jeremy Van Wert, CEO therapist and high level coach on mindful mutiny. We thoughtfully rebel against anything that keeps people from obtaining their highest potential.
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::You are going to love the guests that we have today, Jim Tibuchi is somebody that's been a very important person in my life for a very long period of time. Jim Tibuci is a mentor. He has an incredible amount of life experience that he's going to share with us today, and things that are pretty much gonna blow your mind. He is a serial social entrepreneur, and he's going to get into what this means. He's been called the Swiss Army Knife, and this is a gentleman who retired from Hewlett Packard when he was 42 years old because he wanted to make an impact in
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::the world, and he has started many things. He has done many different things in the community, and has been received a bunch of awards in the Sacramento area for the things that he's done. He is currently the program director for next Gen. Empoweru program which is supported as a partnership between the Cal Asian Federation and Sac States Api Center.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: He is the developer and mentor for this program, providing his wealth of experience to the young adult participants in the program. He's also the program director for the Mandarins Academy in Sacramento, California.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: He met his wife at Uc. Berkeley, and has been happily married for the last 30 years, and he has 2. He has twin boys, Nick and Tim, who are both Eagle Scouts and alumni of the mandarins. They're both graduates of UC. Irvine and UC. Davis, and work in accounting and consulting. And so, with that giant mouthful.
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::welcome. Welcome. Welcome, Jim.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Thank you, Jeremy, appreciate it. And, by the way, today is my 30 s anniversary. So yeah, just just just a wonder to get to this point and to, you know, celebrate our our lives together with Joanne.
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::Jim Tabuchi: That's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Congratulations to you. Thank you.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Yeah. You you have lived a really remarkable life, and it starts a really long time ago. I wanted to take the listeners through the real adventure of your life because it. It is really something with a a bunch of high highs and interesting kinds of lows. And so
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::Jeremy Van Wert: one thing that I know about you is many, many years ago I took a motorcycle trip out to a place out of Delta. Utah called Camp Topaz, and it was a Japanese internment camp, and I published a few pictures on Facebook of
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::Jeremy Van Wert: driving out into this nothingness space where Japanese people had been interned in World War Ii. And you spoke up and started sharing some of your story, and so can you speak for a little bit about your family's connection to the Japanese interment in World War 2?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Sure I'd be glad to. Yeah. Coincidentally, Topaz is where my father in law and his family spent their time. So there were a number of camps across the Us. That was not the camp that my my family was at my mother's side of the family was at at Totally lake, which is in the northern corner northeast corner of California.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and then I don't know why, but my father's family was sent all the way to rower Arkansas, which is a couple of hours outside of Little Rock. So just imagine that alright W. World war 2 breaks out. My mother was 11 years old. My father was right around 15 years old, so they were pre teen or teens at the time.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Terrible terrible time in their lives.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, if you look at my my father's side of the family they were, you could probably say that they were upper middle class. My grandfather had started a business in Stockton, California, called Taboos Department Store. They were actually very affluent. II have the the physical
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::Jim Tabuchi: tax returns from the the mid 19 thirties from the Tibu Department store, and one of the tax returns said that they they reported net income of about $8,000 right. This just to kind of set the stage $8,000 in, you know. Just kind of post depression. Era
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::Jim Tabuchi: of net income was a lot of money right? You could buy a brand new custom house for about $5,000 at the time. You could buy a brand new car for maybe
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know 5 to $700. So what that meant is that they were. They were very wealthy, and and this is the middle of the depression, too. They were doing very well. Yeah, I was after the depression they were doing very well. They own their building that they they lived in.
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::Jim Tabuchi: In fact, Alex Danos
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::Jim Tabuchi: was, and his family were tenants in in our taboo building, right? So Spanish, you know, went on to become a billionaire and and own the chargers right? Well, they're they're our first tenant
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::Jim Tabuchi: in the building. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: So so you go forward right. They they were very wealthy on their own home.
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::Jim Tabuchi: work really hard, and then World War 2 came about. So the bombing of Pearl Harbor, and in December, 1941, at that point my.
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::Jim Tabuchi: the Tuchu family. And and you know the Naka family. My mom's side knew that things are gonna change really drastically for them. They went forward. They had to sell all of the goods in the department store
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::Jim Tabuchi: within about a week. So it's basically a fire sale. Ver very demoralizing to them. having to close the business, vacate the house, move into a relocation center which was like a half mile from their house.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So they had to, you know, board everything up, put everything in storage, and basically walk over to be imprisoned at that point. So they had everything taken away. You know the store, the livelihood their possessions ultimately their freedom.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and then go into this internment camp, which was at the county fairgrounds. It's just, you know, horrible injustice to them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and yet My grandfather sat my father down in camp in in Arkansas.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and told my father, since you know, wars only last for 3 years, right. How'd my grandfather know that? But but he he told my father he said, wars only last for 3 years. So get ready right? We're gonna get out of this camp.
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::Jim Tabuchi: We're gonna build back the business even better than it was before.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Alright. So so even having all of all of those things taken away, and ultimately the freedom.
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::Jim Tabuchi: My my grandfather stayed optimistic
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::Jim Tabuchi: even when you know guns are pointing at him and he's in barbed wire within this, you know. Horrible concentration camp that was there.
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::Jim Tabuchi: You know, fast forward they did get out more lasted 3 years amazingly right? They got out.
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::Jim Tabuchi: My my father was one of the first ones that came back to the College of Pacific and and enrolled in business school. There my grandparents came out after that
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::Jim Tabuchi: my grandfather was able to get his family back into the family home. but within about 3 months he got very, very sick.
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::vomiting blood.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, losing blood and all that, and they they determined that he had.
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::Jim Tabuchi: He had cancer right.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and he ultimately died from that about 3 months after leaving camp. But he accomplishes his goal, which was to get the family back
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::into their home.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. So so that was that was my father's side. My mother's side was also in camp. My on, on my mother's side. I should also mention that my mother's
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::Jim Tabuchi: older sister. was in Japan during World War 2. So she was what's called a kibay, which means that she was sent back to live with her grandmother
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::Jim Tabuchi: in Japan.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And to to study and to work there. So my my aunt
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::Jim Tabuchi: was. She was about.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I think she was 16 years old and was a nurse's aide.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and it. It turned out that our family lived in Hiroshima.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and so my aunt was a nurse's aide on the morning of the dropping of the atomic bomb. and that just happened that she was
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::Jim Tabuchi: in an in an office down in the basement, and when the bomb went off she was shielded by the bomb. She she got hit by a filing cabinet. So that that's how close she was to the epicenter but but managed to, you know. Get out of that hospital but saw
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::Jim Tabuchi: all, all the devastation of the atomic bomb.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and she was ordered to go take refuge in a cave while she was on the path to get to that cave she noticed that there was this sick girl
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::in front of her. She picked her up
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and that girl ended up dying in her arms on on the way to the cave. And and you know, so, being a nurse's age, she was told to go to the hospital, she had to take care of the sick and the dying, and and to comfort them, and just just the horror of of World War 2 was right in front of her eyes, and she never really fully recovered from that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So so again you you'd look back to World War 2. That's that's that's where I get my strength right that my my family had to endure so much
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::Jim Tabuchi: so much injustice, so much imprisonment, so much of of the war and
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and the tragedy of the war.
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::Jim Tabuchi: that when I look at my life today, you know they they paid my life for me, providing me with all these opportunities. And and there's nothing, absolutely nothing, that could happen to me
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::Jim Tabuchi: that would be worse than what my ancestors had gone through in the war. And so you know to me, II look at that, and and that gives me a lot of courage. A lot of strength to say
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::Jim Tabuchi: I can take risks.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and that means that I can. I can take on these endeavors to help others, and no matter what the setback is with me. There, there's no way I can be worse than you know what my family went through.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So so that's that's the basis for my strength.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: You know it it. I can't help myself when you're explaining these things. I can see them in my head like you. You have this way of being able to explain
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::Jeremy Van Wert: what your family went through. That's very moving. II imagine that some of that comes from the the number of stories that have been passed down about those times in your family that are very well known in your family. These, these traumas, these injustices, and everything like that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, yeah, although you know, not a lot was said.
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::Jim Tabuchi: If very few words that we're we're actually talked about right? I really had to kind of grab onto these stories and and and pull them out of people right? Pull them out of my father. You know. Pull it out of my aunt, and and really ask for these stories to be written down, because
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::Jim Tabuchi: that's the only way we know. But but now that I know the story, it's my obligation to pass it down to my kids and my nieces and nephews to the next generation.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Now it's it's tremendously important. My experience in going to Camp Topaz. South's out of this little tiny place called Delta, Utah.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: and I passed it a couple of times, and I wanted to make time to go out. But I've been to concentration camps and other places in the world, and they are a a very thoughtfully maintained and and incredible places to stand and be
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::Jeremy Van Wert: camp topaz. There was nothing there. It. There were no signs to get there. I had to get a map and follow it and get there. There's a tiny plaque
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::Jeremy Van Wert: there with a little American flag, and there's ruins on the ground. Ti, you know, teapots and car doors and things like that. Nothing standing out there, nothing maintained. I was really taken aback by
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::Jeremy Van Wert: the the kind of moving on from history. This is a very important piece of history.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, yeah, if you think about it. Right? The Us. Government created these camps very quickly, right? And and put them in place. But I think that you know, the Government knew that this was a disgrace. This was the wrong thing to do, and so, once the camps were closed, they did everything possible to scrape the earth of this. And so you can imagine, you know, one or 2 generations. There's gonna be no nothing there
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::Jim Tabuchi: a, unless there's memories that are put in place in in written form.
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::Jim Tabuchi: yeah, they. They literally scraped the scraped the land. There were 18,000 people in Tulley Lake.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and if you go there to day, you don't even know that it existed. It's obliterated from kind of the the, the cultural memory of of the country.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Well, I'm I'm I'm really glad that you are willing to talk about it here, because they know that it's the source of a lot of shame and pain
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::for the people who endured it.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, I was just gonna say, yeah, there, there's a lot of yeah shame and pain that that came from it. But if you can kind of flip it around right.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and to use that as a source of pride for having survived it, but then also thriving and and using that as a source of strength, I think that's that's probably the most positive thing that can come out of this.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: So when were you born?
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::Jim Tabuchi: I was born in 63
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::Jim Tabuchi: I just. I just celebrated my sixtieth birthday last week.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Happy birthday, thank you. And and and so so 1963, your you have brothers and sisters.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, yeah, I'm the I'm the youngest one. So my mom still calls me the baby.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: my my 93 year old mom. And and so so you're in this family that has had to rebuild from the from the ground up, that has a mindset of understanding what real suffering actually is. And you start thinking some higher thoughts about what is possible in the world. And you're you're starting to kind of grow up. And
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::Jeremy Van Wert: you, where did your mindset that you have now really begin to kind of start, what did that all come from?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. Yeah. That that's great question.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I was one of these people who had.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I don't know. II knew where I was going right. II remember back when I was 5 years old, my grandmother asking me what college I was gonna go to
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::Jim Tabuchi: right? Who does that since I knew you know, college was my destiny.
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::Jim Tabuchi: When I came out of high school I applied to one college. It's crazy thinking about it now. Right? Kids, kids these days they'll apply to 30 colleges. II applied to one, and it was to Uc. Berkeley right? And, by the way, I didn't get in. So I applied. Ii had 4 Gpa, I had high sat scores and all that, but II didn't realize I applied to the
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, one of the most popular universities in the most impacted major sci-fi to electrical engineering
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::Jim Tabuchi: which electrical engineering, computer science. And and so they had, you know, thousands and thousands of people applying to this major.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I just figured, you know, I had a decent test scores and all that I was gonna get in. So I only applied to one college. They denied me.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and I had to get accepted on appeal for that but but I knew, you know when when I got into electrical engineering, I knew that's what I wanted to do. But then, once I started electrical engineering, I knew my path, my career path, which was to take a technical background. I had business going through my veins from the Tibuchi side. I knew I wanted to combine business and and electrical engineering, high tech work.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And then I had a very strong interest in international business.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And so I studied Japanese language, and I knew that I was gonna get my Mba right after that, so graduated with electrical engineering degree, went and got my M Mba in an international marketing, went overseas studied and worked in Japan
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::Jim Tabuchi: went to Hewlett-packard after that right? And and to start in my career that way. But during that time focused everything on international business in the high tech world. And it turned out that that was a great career choice.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So it's kind of interesting. My! My life has been a series of 18 year cycles.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So my my education was 18 years starting from, you know, kindergarten through to get my undergraduate and graduate degree right? That was my first 18 years.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I then went into the high tech world and spent 18 years in that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So everything was about international business in the high tech side. Worked overseas in Japan, worked overseas in Hong Kong
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::Jim Tabuchi: as the Asia Pacific Region manager so was exposed to, you know, dozen countries, and really the very start of the heyday so visited Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia.
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::Jim Tabuchi: India, Australia, just traveled on a weekly basis. Most week, covering about 3 countries every week.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So was was living at a suitcase, visiting.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, hotels and different countries, and all that which which really propelled my career.
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::Jim Tabuchi: There are a lot of electrical engineeries in high tech. Of course there were some who had Mbas, but nobody had international experience, together with business and with high tech. And so that became the foundation. I called it the 3 legged stool for my career, and it allowed me to to propel my career very, very quickly.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Up into senior management within Hewlett, Packard.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and and to that end
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::Jim Tabuchi: One of the
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::Jim Tabuchi: one of the managers that I had met in Korea, actually his Korean sales manager.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Turn me onto this book called 7 Habits of highly effective people by Steven Covey. Right? And so he gave me the book, and during my travels I read the book and
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::Jim Tabuchi: took all of the exercises very seriously. And one of the exercises was to
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::Jim Tabuchi: imagine your own funeral.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and what it would be like. And what are people saying about you at your own funeral.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and that exercise took me probably about 4 months to go through
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::Jim Tabuchi: to actually seriously imagine myself sitting at my own funeral, and and what's being said
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::Jim Tabuchi: that that was a life-changing exercise for me.
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::because
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::Jim Tabuchi: up until then I was such a hard, charging business person I was spending
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::Jim Tabuchi: literally, you know, 9,000 HA week just focused on my career right? And and, by the way, at the time I had, you know, twin boys, newborns, and my wife, and we all had traveled to Hong Kong
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::Jim Tabuchi: while I was working the Asia Pacific Day. At that time.
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::Jim Tabuchi: at the same time I was working probably 4 to 6 h in the middle of the night, communicating back with my California division right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: So so that exercise really caused me to stop and think right, which is what is, what's my life about?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Wh, what's what's it all about? What's what's the meaning of life. and and what's the purpose of my life.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And so through that Stephen covey exercise, I realized that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah.
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::Jim Tabuchi: all all of these things about, you know, meeting quota, you know, getting paychecks and raises and
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::Jim Tabuchi: and yeah, new positions and all that. It's all pretty superficial, right
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::Jim Tabuchi: in reality. What my life is is meant to be about is having a positive impact on everybody that I encounter.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so that became my life mission.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and I know that, you know at
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::Jim Tabuchi: at my deathbed.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I'm not gonna worry about, you know, hitting 130% of quota and Cree in of 2,003, right? That doesn't matter right? What really matters are the lives that I've touched the people that I've impacted positively
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and and making that difference. And so that became, you know, my life mission after that.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: So that kind of goes into it sounds like you're 42 years old. You decide that it's time to retire. You've gone to the top of
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::Jeremy Van Wert: your division is Hewlett Packard. You're there, and you're infused with this kind of sense of this existential need for more
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::Jeremy Van Wert: meaning out of the work that you do, and the way that you spend the hours of your week. And so at at this point.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: do you know what you're gonna do next?
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::Jim Tabuchi: No Nope, is is really interesting to
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::Jim Tabuchi: a as I was in Hewlett Packard. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: II was. I was highly technical to begin with, but then my managers, for some reason, saw this insight that I could have a bigger impact managing and leading people.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I went kicking and screaming. I wanted to stay technical. But what I what I didn't realize was how fun it would be and how fulfilling it would be
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::Jim Tabuchi: to coach people right and to mentor them. And so I started taking on mentorships of of people and and and the best thing about it was.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I always viewed that you know, about 50% of my reward in the job was the paycheck that I got the other 50% was the fulfillment that I got in helping other people succeed. And and so that's what I started doing. And little did I know that
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::Jim Tabuchi: that that would also propel me to
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::Jim Tabuchi: higher levels within the corporation to the point where I you know, I got to be in a senior manager at a pretty young age, and people still saw promise that I was, you know, going to be Vp executive Vp. Who knows? You know how far would go within the corporate chain? And I stepped away from that, and people couldn't believe it. They're like, you know you were.
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::Jim Tabuchi: You were in line to become the next journal manager. Next, you know, Vp executive vp, and yet you turn that down and and you're retiring early right my boss once told me, he said. You know, Jim, you're really hard to manage
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::Jim Tabuchi: like. No, I'm not. I'm not. II hit my objectives, you know. Run a really good team. We have, you know, 3, 400 people on my team, and and almost no attrition from my team.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and he said, No, that's not what I'm talking about, he said. I could threaten to fire you
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::Jim Tabuchi: then you wouldn't care
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::Jim Tabuchi: right? And and I said, Yeah, that's right. I said, You know, financially, I leave this job right now, and and and I could care less. Right? II have what I need to live for the rest of my life. And and so, you know, I'm I'm financially independent, right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: So it's funny, after that, all of our one on ones that we talked about were about them achieving financial independence. So so so yeah, I was, I was able to jump away from the high tech world, and and I knew that my life would be about helping people. I just didn't know in what direction.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so II have these these metaphors that I use that
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::Jim Tabuchi: that that people can either be an arrow or they can be a feather.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Alright, an arrow. If you think about it, you take this arrow, sharpen arrow, and you have a target right? This concentric circles on this target.
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::Jim Tabuchi: You aim that arrow and you try to shoot it as straight as possible right for the dead center of that target.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Right? You know what your goal is. You know how you're gonna achieve it, and you just shoot for it right? The flip side, though, is a feather.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and if you're familiar with the story of Forrest. Gump! Right? There's this, this white feather that just kind of follows along where the wind blows.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and Forrest gump! That was his life. He had no idea that he was, you know, gonna go into the military or that he was. Gonna be this, you know, football, you know college football star
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::Jim Tabuchi: or ping Pong star in China, or whatever it was right. He just he he just let the wind take him where it was gonna go.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So so if you think about the first part of my life, I was that straight arrow.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, shooting to be an amazing international business man in the high tech world. and I achieved it right. The second, you know phase of my my professional life, though.
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::Jim Tabuchi: has really been as a feather. Right. II go to where the wind takes me. So what that means is that opportunities present themselves. And
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::Jim Tabuchi: when I get those phone calls most of the time I'll say yes
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::Jim Tabuchi: to what they are and and what that's led me to is just a huge amount of
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::Jim Tabuchi: opportunities to help people that I had no idea that were gonna come into my life. And and so, yeah, today, I'm I'm that Forrest Gump White Feather. That's kind of floating around according to where the wind is, is taking me
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::Jeremy Van Wert: and through. And so you you have this knack for knowing
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::Jeremy Van Wert: knowing the strengths of people, and understanding very subtly their weaknesses as well. And throughout the years you you, when I've spoken with you, you've so kindly
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::Jeremy Van Wert: pushed me into doing things that I wasn't thinking that I needed to do. But you coarse, correct, in a very gentle way. And and it's always based upon
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::Jeremy Van Wert: values. What are the values you're going here. What's the foundational good that you're trying to do? Here, let's start with that.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: And so you've you've obviously been able to come to. And it sounds like that. You got really good at it at Hewlett-packard. The ability to recognize people's patterns, those with potential, those with various weaknesses that they either know about or don't know about.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: How did you come to just be able to read? People like that know
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::Jim Tabuchi: those who have the X factor? I guess the the kind of it, and and those that that need to hear a certain thing that can course correct them. Where? Where did that all come from?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, III don't know. Actually,
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::Jim Tabuchi: II know that my mind synthesizes things in in ways that
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::Jim Tabuchi: I don't think
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::Jim Tabuchi: anybody that I've met synthesizes in this same way. So what I mean by that is II can take in a huge amount of data.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and from that gain some pretty unique insights.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Ii used to do this from a strategy standpoint.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, within within my career I would take customer reports, and I would take bug reports and industry information.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, typically like a a foot of of material. And I'd go off to a library and a coffee shop and and wander around at a college, or just get into some deep thinking. And from that come up with a strategy
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::Jim Tabuchi: and a really sound strategy of how we can take our organization forward.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Ii don't know where that comes from. But my mind is able to to just synthesize a lot of things and kind of put it into the computer and and then come out with some very simple strategies. I also do that with people. Right? So so a lot of it's just through observation, through listening, through understanding their environment, seeing the world from their eyes and uncovering what could be really breakthrough opportunities for them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I'll I'll give you an example right? I had an engineer in Singapore who had who who came to me, who's rare, very troubled, was getting ready to quit the company.
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::Jim Tabuchi: didn't know what he was going to do with his life, and and and was really just kind of distraught at that point. and and I listened to it for a while, and I said, You know I don't get it right. You're in. You're in a perfect position now where you're in Singapore developing country. The the.
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::Jim Tabuchi: The government has already said that they want to go in the high tech area that we're in. All you have to do is to assert yourself into that area.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and you can be an amazing resource for yourself, but also for for the overall, you know, country. He came back a month later and he said, Jim, he said, I'm I'm now having dinner with the Director of Economic Development for the country of Singapore.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and I'm now part of the strategic initiative, for where the country is going. And he said, it's all because of what he talked. Talk with me about.
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::Jim Tabuchi: they said. Now my career is on a whole, different trajectory, and I see the importance of what I'm doing right? And and so, yeah, yeah, so so a lot of it is just that that ability to to synthesize and maybe to see some things that that others don't from from a very high level perspective.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I was II created this program called the Catalyst Leadership Development Program.
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::Jim Tabuchi: where we take high potential leaders and really tru help to turn them into true leaders. Right? Super. Fortunate to have this program, you know, under my wings, where?
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::Jim Tabuchi: All these people, II viewed them as as these big Jumbo 7 47 s. On on the runway, getting ready to take off right.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and the gift to me was that I had now had this classroom full of these 740 sevens who had they? They're wonderful people
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::Jim Tabuchi: already employed having gone through their education and were identified as being these high potential leaders. Right? So I looked at them as the 747 S. Who've been developed, designed, equipped, manufactured, fully fueled up.
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::Jim Tabuchi: ready on this this runway, ready to take off. I just had to figure out how to release the brake.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And once that happens, all of these high potential leaders then can take off and soar
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and and so I'm seeing it today, you know, kind of the fruits of that labor where they're they're now Ceos, chief financial officers, you know, general counsel, all, all of these just amazing individuals who are now leading, and all I had to do was to figure out how to release that break with them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and now they go in soar. So that that's a lot of what I do today.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Si, well, so in your work that you've done with me, I have. I come to you and I explain a big idea, and I'm usually already down
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::Jeremy Van Wert: on the other end of the football field at the 30 yard line. You're still standing at the at the at the other end zone, and you go.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Okay? Well, let's start with step one in this whole. How did how did you start down this routing? You always pull back to a center. That is, that is, is mission focused is values focused. And II just
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::Jeremy Van Wert: I am. I'm assuming that that comes from some
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::Jeremy Van Wert: just base level of wisdom, some spiritual background, or something like that that that you really are in tune with. So wh? Where does that kind of come from.
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::Jim Tabuchi: That that's a great question. I
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::Jim Tabuchi: actually don't know. although I I have a deep seated understanding that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, your values should not change
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::Jim Tabuchi: to. To me. I view that I'm one person, right? How I'm speaking with you on this podcast is exactly how I would speak to my 93 year old mother, or to my kids, or to my my wife or anybody that I'm coaching.
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::Jim Tabuchi: that I don't believe in masks right? A lot of people when
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know you you think about. When they're going to work right.
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::they wake up.
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::Jim Tabuchi: they look at themselves in the mirror, they brush your teeth, get ready for work, and all that they put on, whatever their
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::Jim Tabuchi: their uniform is. For that day they get in the car. They're grabbing that steering wheel as they're driving to work, and they're putting on a mask. They're putting on successive masks to where they get it into work. And now they've got this mask on that's completely different from how they were at home.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Meanwhile. When it's time to go home from work, we then take off those masks right? I don't believe in that right. I just believe in being who I am.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Ii got that feeling actually pretty early on in life. I remember being.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I think it's like fifth grade, right? But you you start to, you know.
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::Jim Tabuchi: learn learn cuss words and things like that when you're in elementary school, and you start to, you know. Use those words when you're there, and all that. And I knew it's like, if I ever use those words at home. Right? My my parents would kill me right not literally. But I mean I'd be in bad trouble. So I figured like.
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::Jim Tabuchi: why, why should I use different words when I'm at school than when I'm at home? That's too difficult to do. Let's I'm just gonna be the same person I as I am at school, as I am at work
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::Jim Tabuchi: or at at home, right? And this is in fifth grade. I came to that realization. And so therefore, after that, it's like, yeah, just being the same person. It's a whole lot easier to do that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: But then, you know, as part of that, the same person means that you're really based on a set of values that you have.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and those values just became developed over time and
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and what work for me? Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. Me. Meanwhile, at the same time in my life I was learning that I really preferred the taste of dove soap over Irish Spring cause II ended up having a lot of it in my mouth, so I just avoided that right. There was another thing that I avoided. And that had to do with
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::Jim Tabuchi: drinking alcohol
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::Jim Tabuchi: alright. And and I don't. You know I don't fault anybody.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, who who chooses to drink. It's just that when I was I was 10 years old. you know, very, very vivid
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::Jim Tabuchi: memory for me. It's 10 years old, and I was
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::Jim Tabuchi: washing sidewalks at at my father's store, so we had a a bunch of pigeon poop and all that that had to wash off and so I remember you know, taking out the hose and all that, and I had to wash off the sidewalk. Well, there were homeless people that were sleeping
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::Jim Tabuchi: on on the sidewalk. and so, in order for me to do my job, I had to speak with them and and talk with them, and ask them very politely to move so that I could do my job right.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and the story that just kept coming up over and over and over again where these people were homeless. And they they they lost their, their.
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::Jim Tabuchi: their wives and families and kids and and house, and all of that
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::Jim Tabuchi: because of drinking. And so I just chose at that point. Yeah, it's like. I don't need to drink
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::Jim Tabuchi: fast forward. I lived in wine country for 16 years, kind of tough place to view that that being a drinker but some of these things they were just, you know, very early lessons in life. Ii remember being about 16 years old, and I had the job at, you know Tibu's department store and all that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and I remember that I had with the money that I had. I had bought this cool little boom box right and and I think cost like a hundred bucks, and I was so happy, and I've shown it off to all my friends in the drum core, and all that, that. I had this little boombox and and I got a lot of pleasure from it, and I was really happy to own that. And and then I stopped. And I was like.
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::Jim Tabuchi: this isn't right. Why am I so happy because I bought something.
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::Jim Tabuchi: If I gain happiness from purchasing something, then something's wrong in my life.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And so I thought I shouldn't derive happiness from buying something ever
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::Jim Tabuchi: alright. And and so that's where you know, material things just became, you know.
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::Jim Tabuchi: non-consequential in me.
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::Jim Tabuchi: It's just like I don't care about material things.
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::Jim Tabuchi: They don't mean anything to me. and and so, and and I don't get enjoyment out of out of material things.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so what that meant to me is that I didn't have to rely on money to make me happy
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::Jim Tabuchi: again very early, early, early lessons in life. Yeah. Well, probably a big reason why you were financially stable enough at 42 years old to make a major change for yourself is that you had been very mindful of the blessing of money
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::Jeremy Van Wert: and the the careful way that money can create good in the world and can create stability early in life if you are
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::Jeremy Van Wert: careful with it.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yes, exactly. Yeah. So to me, money didn't mean possessions or happiness. Money meant freedom.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. And and I stopped thinking about money in terms of dollars. And I started thinking about money in terms of time.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and the whole idea is with the amount of wealth that I have.
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::Jim Tabuchi: If if I were to receive no more money in life, meaning I lost my job, and you know no money was coming in.
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::Jim Tabuchi: How long could I live on my current wealth.
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::Jim Tabuchi: given, given my current lifestyle right? And so I started thinking about my wealth in terms of months. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: If you have one month's worth of of expenses in your wall, and that means you can live a month right? But but as you start to save and invest.
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::Jim Tabuchi: then your wealth starts to build up. And at some point it's like. I don't need to work anymore. And that and that's true freedom. right? And and once you have that freedom, then you're free to do whatever you want
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::Jim Tabuchi: at that point.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: And it's that's actually something that that I that I do, that my, what I open, I does. We've we've got this program where we essentially program in all of our expenses, all of our
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::Jeremy Van Wert: all of our income. And it shows you how far you have without income to be okay. And when you can grow that period of time, there's this strong sense of strength.
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::Jim Tabuchi: freedom.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: and and and that all of that sort of thing that comes along with with the financial freedom. So
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::Jeremy Van Wert: and and and then you get to
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::Jeremy Van Wert: make a decision like you did when you were 42. So since you were since you've been 42, you had 18 years since that time you've done a lot of different things, and all of these things
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::Jeremy Van Wert: have been
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::Jim Tabuchi: helping people build themselves both in organizations and one on one with people. And so what? Yeah.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: you you are done with your career at 42, that that part of your career and you move into new things. What are the values that you use to decide
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::where you need to be
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::Jim Tabuchi: so so it's all about helping people. I've chosen to do a lot of helping of people, typically young adults
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::Jim Tabuchi: right? And here's the reason why. If you help somebody who's, let's say, 20 years old, right? And that person can live to be 80 plus years old. Then that means you've added an impact on them for the next 60 years. And not only have you helped them, but you've probably helped the next generation, and the next generation after that.
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::Jim Tabuchi: right? And and so
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::Jim Tabuchi: so so that's been a real area of focus for me is to to help young adults. And so that's been in the German bugle core that I've I've been part of and and helped to grow.
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::Jim Tabuchi: That's been in
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::Jim Tabuchi: the catalyst program where it's really high potential young adults to be successful in in their careers, but, more importantly, in life. And then this most recent venture that I started up last year called the Empoweru program.
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::Jim Tabuchi: which is all about first and second generation, Asian Americans who are either immigrants themselves or their parents or immigrants. And they're really trying to figure out how this you know American system works and how they can kind of align their lives to be successful. And and again, you know, if if I'm able to help them when they're in their twenties, this can help them for multiple generations going forward.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and I've done a lot of things in, you know, in this past 18 years to do a lot of, you know, one on one coaching. But then also organization building to the point where you know, I probably have.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I don't know how many hundreds of people that I've mentored during this time.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and, by the way, when I when I mentor, II always say that I mentor for life, which means 2 different things. One is, I'm mentoring them, for, you know, for their their life skills and so forth. But but I never stop mentoring them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So when I take somebody under under my wings to mentor them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: II will continue coaching them as as long as they continue asking for that. And so I have some people that I've been mentoring for, you know, 30 years.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know one of the people that I've I've mentioned in China. He's now a CEO, and I'm still in contact with them.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so, yeah, lot of lot of what I've done has been, you know. mentoring individuals. I'm I'm starting to to kinda
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::Jim Tabuchi: change my mindset now, which is
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::Jim Tabuchi: taking what I've learned
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::Jim Tabuchi: personally, and what I've mentored, and how how I've helped coach people, and I'd really like to get it out to the masses. Right? So so if I may be able to help a classroom of 25,
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::Jim Tabuchi: why why should my impact be limited at 25 is, is there a way for me to impact 250 people or 2,500 or 25,000 or 250,000? Can I can I go bigger with some of these lessons that that I've learned and I've been able to teach so so that kind of occupies my mind right now is, is there a way to to now get out some of these lessons in a much bigger and broader way
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::Jim Tabuchi: to impact a lot more people. II haven't figured that out yet. But that occupies a real large part of my mind right now.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: you know, with regard to the part of parts of your mind that this occupies over the years I have received various out of the blue texts from you, and they're generally texts that come from this state of very deep, existential contemplation, and you'll ask me a question. You know, as a therapist.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: what role do you see? The healing. the healing aspects of music being able to play
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::Jeremy Van Wert: in the way
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::Jeremy Van Wert: that
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::Jeremy Van Wert: mental illness is healed in the larger community. And and you know I'm washing the dishes. I read a text like that, and I go, man
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::Jim Tabuchi: Jim is in a different space right now. Give this some thought and then get back to Jim a little bit later, when I can focus up a little bit, you know, and then it launches into these wonderful kind of contemplative discussions that we have about just simply what?
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::Jeremy Van Wert: What is it that?
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::Jeremy Van Wert: How would you make music? A thing that heals people who are suffering? And how would you then expand that into a community thing that anybody can attend, because everybody deserves to have the gift of music in their heart for the he for healing, for community, for connection and everything like that.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: You spend time thinking about these deep issues. And I just kind of imagine you
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::Jeremy Van Wert: in your backyard looking at the stars, thinking about these things on a on a relatively free you do. You take time, that is, that is often for you to to actually think these things through.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So
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::Jim Tabuchi: I don't. I don't know if I if I dedicate time right? So I don't like
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::Jim Tabuchi: go to the beach and listen to the waves, or anything like that. II don't meditate right? But I do a lot of reading. I do a lot of thinking and and sparks of insight, you know. Come up. The whole idea of being a serial social entrepreneur is is very relevant here. And and I'll give you an example. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: So I had this, this spark of insight, which is, you know, we've we're doing music programs. And we've
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::Jim Tabuchi: we. We're at 43 elementary schools running these band programs. Right? So so we'll have that 1,300 kids as part of this program. Right? So it's it's a big program. We started with 11. We're not 1,300 kids and all of that. But there's one school that we haven't gotten to right. And it's called the Baker School
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::Jim Tabuchi: for kids
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::Jim Tabuchi: with special needs.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And I'm like, why aren't we doing something over there?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Why can't we use music to impact these kids lives who have special needs? So so I start dabbling into this. And you know, do some reading and research on it and
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::Jim Tabuchi: some some approaches with that. But but in my mind, I'm thinking.
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::Jim Tabuchi: okay. So the first time we do it, it's gonna be a pilot, right? But the second time we do it we should start writing down what works. The third time we do it we should start developing a curriculum.
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::Jim Tabuchi: The fourth time we should start taking this out to other different school districts and other different populations, and and and then, the fifth time we do it. We should start, you know, broadcasting this nat nationally
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::Jim Tabuchi: on some techniques that we use on how to do it? Right? So all ideas. Yeah, let's impact 12 kids. Now, let's get to 160 at that point. But you know, why can't we
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::Jim Tabuchi: take some of these learnings and publish and develop to where we can impact the lives of, you know, thousands or tens of thousands of.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, special needs kids and impact their lives in music. Right? So it really is this whole entrepreneurial approach
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::Jim Tabuchi: to doing some things that would be a service, but doing it with more and more, and having a bigger and bigger impact with this. Yeah, so this is, it's a living one.
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::Jim Tabuchi: That's that's an example. Right now that we actually just started talking about yesterday.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: The focus that you have consistently worked on with me is
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::Jeremy Van Wert: focus on the message, focus on who you're helping focus on the good that you are trying to effect in the world.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Don't focus on the money focus on the values exactly right, right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: and focus on stories right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: I'm a hoarder when it comes to stories. I'm not a hoarder in any other way. Right? If you look at. I have 3 bookshelves behind me. Right in the past these bookshelves were completely filled with books.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I ended up giving away 95% of them. I think you can see just a few books over here. Right? Those are important books to be But but II don't hoard anything else right? I don't even hoard money or anything like that. But II hoard stories.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Because stories are those things where? If you're doing your things right? You can have these stories of impacting people's lives. And and those are the best things to have right. These stories are perfect examples of the good things that you've done in life that have had positive impacts.
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::Yeah. So that's that's really what I focus on.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: I want to ask you an even more personal question here, and it has to do with the role of fear and insecurity.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: And I know that you know things that I have dealt with personally, and things that a lot of people deal with is a fear of change.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: a fear of not measuring up a, a, a sense of not being a whole imposter, syndrome thing. And
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::Jeremy Van Wert: fear is a huge driver for people in making decisions that are filled with safety instead of values, and everything like that in your life
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::Jeremy Van Wert: have there been times where fear and insecurity is something that you've had to overcome?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Not really. No, that's it. Fear is not sense. I'm getting. It's not in my mindset. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: II have this saying that that runs in my mind, and it's something that I coach on as well, and the saying is. what's the worst thing that can happen to you?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Right? So if you really think about that, if I take something on
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::Jim Tabuchi: and it fails miserably. What's the worst thing that can happen to me?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Not much, really right? Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Maybe I lose my job. Maybe I lose some faith. You know I lose the time that I put into it.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So what? I'm going to go and start something else alright. And and I coach people about this right? So I coach a a lot of really high level executives. I mean CEO level executives. And and when they're thinking about.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, risky ventures that they're gonna take on, or something that that they're gonna move forward with. II ask them what's the worst thing that can happen here
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::Jim Tabuchi: right? And and for for them, typically it's well they lose their job. That's the worst thing that can happen.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And then so what
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::Jim Tabuchi: right highly talented people they can go on and get another job somewhere else, maybe even better than where they what they're currently at. And and and and so that's something that
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, II coach people on that. And and yet I don't need to really use that. I mean.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, some some of the ventures that I'm I'm involved with. What's the worst thing that can happen? Well, fails miserably. Okay, fine. Let's redirect. Let's figure out what went wrong, and let's make it better. Or let's go do something else. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. So fear doesn't fear doesn't enter in my mind. And again it gets back to the, you know, early stories of my my ancestors. Right they had. They suffered from so much.
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::Jim Tabuchi: They! They took risks to be here in the United States, and and they succeeded
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::Jim Tabuchi: right. So what do I have to fear? Really nothing.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: Well, in in and in your discussions with people who are working with you about the role of fear and insecurity, and everything like that? Have you seen people severely.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: or even partially limit their potential because they act based upon these these kinds of things? And and what what has been your kind of takeaway from that sort of thing?
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, yeah, I have.
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::Jim Tabuchi: 1. One of the things that that I've employed in my management leadership style. I like to call myself a demand assist manager.
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::Jim Tabuchi: So what that means is that II demand high performance data. The team that I'm leading right. But I'm also very clear to say I am ready to roll up my sleeves right and and get in the trench with you. I'm gonna roll up my sleeve use. And we're gonna work together to make this initiative successful. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so what that does is it? It provides
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::Jim Tabuchi: a a level of focus towards excellence, but it also allows whoever I'm leading to know that I'm in their corner
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::Jim Tabuchi: completely right? And then I'm gonna do everything in my power personally to help them to be successful with what they do. And and so I think a lot of that provides assurance.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I also tend to not be
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::Jim Tabuchi: super critical. I'd rather focus on the positives than on the negatives.
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::Jim Tabuchi: because I think if you're critical with somebody. it just puts this this bug in their brains. Perfect.
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::Jim Tabuchi: this this negative bug that's in their brains. And it holds them back from doing.
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::Jim Tabuchi: you know, from from really moving forward as as quickly and effectively as possible.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and so I like to, you know, promote and and prop people up rather than
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::Jim Tabuchi: cut them off and and degrade them. And I think that's that's probably the most effective way to lead people.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: And with regard to characteristics that a person
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::Jeremy Van Wert: can have that ends up being somebody who is
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::Jeremy Van Wert: limitless at high, at a high level. What are those characteristics that you generally try to foster in a person, or that, you see, are a natural part of their
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::Jeremy Van Wert: just kind of personality.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, I think that I think the biggest thing is confidence
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::Jim Tabuchi: is helping people to understand where they've come from, where they're at now, and the and using that to build confidence and to take small successes and make sure that you're you're celebrating those successes, because that's what gives you the confidence to move forward to the big next bigger one. Right?
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::Jim Tabuchi: And and I would say, you know, back to the whole idea of helping leaders and helping them remove that break. That's the biggest thing.
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::Jim Tabuchi: What I see in people is that they have a self image of them that is really antiquated.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And so a lot of people have a self image of them when they are
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::Jim Tabuchi: 5 years old or 8 years old, or, you know, the youngest child being bullied by siblings or by, you know, bullies at school or you know, having critical parents or things like that that that's a lot of their own self images back antiquated back when they were that young.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Meanwhile they've gone on to be successful in education and careers and all of that. And yet their self image is still stuck back when they are 8 or 8 or 9 years old. So what I do is try to help them
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::Jim Tabuchi: to to get a more updated sense of who who they are. So a lot of coaching that I do. Best thing that I can do is to be a perfect mirror to somebody
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::Jim Tabuchi: alright, and to to let them see themselves truthfully for who they are today. And and and when they see that then in most cases they
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::Jim Tabuchi: they then update their own self image and realize that yeah, they are
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::Jim Tabuchi: not who they used to be, but who they are right now. and that gives them a better sense of how to go forward.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: You're doing therapy with people.
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::Jim Tabuchi: Is that what it is? I didn't even know that right? And, by the way, so I am not trained in soft skills at all, right? II took one psychology class when I was at Berkeley, and it was a pass fail class.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and I think I barely passed it
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::Jim Tabuchi: right. So so I have not trained in any of this in a formal sense, it really is kind of learning by doing
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::Jeremy Van Wert: it. This is so. What you're doing is so impactful. And I find this like not only in myself, but in a lot of the clients that I am working with this sense of.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: I not arrested development. But certainly this concept of self that goes back to
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::Jeremy Van Wert: many, many, many years ago, and a self concept that may include loneliness, isolation, feeling, stupid feeling alone.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: not feeling smart.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: these sorts of things. And and it can be
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::Jeremy Van Wert: very damaging, particularly the kind of modern education system that
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::Jeremy Van Wert: really adheres to a style of learning that is really good for certain kinds of minds, and not that great for other kinds of minds. So younger people can get a real mistaken sense of what their actual value is, and they grow up with that. And they they hang on to that. Even if they get into high levels of things they have to kind of unstick themselves
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::Jeremy Van Wert: from these earlier memories of themselves. And it can, it can be really.
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::Jim Tabuchi: really affecting for long periods of time? Exactly. Yeah, it can. It can carry on with them for their lives. Right? That perfect example. So I was coaching this one woman. She was a middle manager at a large corporation.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and and it was our first one on one discussion.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And she said, Jim, she said, I just wanna let you know that I I have a a very horrible speech impediment. I've had it all in my life. This is gone and and carried through with me all throughout my life. I remember back when I was in elementary school, being teased so much that I would go home, you know, running home crying, because, you know, I stuttered, and I couldn't get my words out right.
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::Jim Tabuchi: She said it exactly like I just did right now.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And I said, You know what congratulations, whatever speech impairment you had before.
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::Jim Tabuchi: It's completely gone
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::Jim Tabuchi: you are. You are so articulate now. So I said that from this point forward
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::Jim Tabuchi: you've you've been. You've been holding this ball and chain, and you've been carrying this 200 pound ball and chain around with you
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::ever since you were that little girl back being teased.
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::Jim Tabuchi: I said, from this day forward we're gonna cut that chain off, and you're gonna leave that 200 pound ball behind.
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::Jim Tabuchi: because whatever you have done in your life. You have now completely overcome that speech impediment that you had previously.
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::Jim Tabuchi: It was so liberating for her right. She went on about a month later. and she gave a talk
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::Jim Tabuchi: at the State Capitol in front of 400 girls with their moms in front of this this large audience right? And and was just amazing in her in her presentation. Right? And to this day she's now articulate. She she no longer carries that ball and chained around with her.
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::Jim Tabuchi: and she now has an updated sense of who she is. So many people, if you can, just, you know, release that break they're ready to store.
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::Jim Tabuchi: And that's a huge part of what I do.
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::Jeremy Van Wert: How many people do you work with that? Have something like that kind of hanging on the shoulder, almost all of them. Yeah.
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::Jim Tabuchi: almost all of them. Yeah, in in whatever way.
402
::Jim Tabuchi: Right? And and
403
::Jim Tabuchi: you know, a good part of that is just like, you know, hey? Whatever you've had in the past, it's not working
404
::Jim Tabuchi: right? Let's just figure out how to get rid of that. So you can saw.
405
::Jeremy Van Wert: Yeah, that's that's incredibly insightful. And it was not that long ago, maybe a year ago, that you started doing a deep dive on the concept of moral injury
406
::Jim Tabuchi: as a as a thing that it in. I'll go ahead and attempt to explain it the best that I can. You can help correct, and the idea of moral injury being
407
::Jeremy Van Wert: a kind of psychological scar that is obtained when a person is asked to do things, perform functions generally at a workplace, that is, against their own internal set of values or feeling. What is right. It is a concept that is heavily related to burnout.
408
::Jeremy Van Wert: and happens quite frequently, and I've thought a lot about this since you started writing about it and talking about it. The concept of moral injury. And I thought about the times in my life when I've been morally injured at work, because
409
::Jeremy Van Wert: II read a book that you may have have read
410
::Jim Tabuchi: called bullshit jobs, and that that book changed my life. It was about the concept of how many people have jobs where they don't actually do anything good for the world where they're just
411
::Jeremy Van Wert: clocking in clocking out. The work is meaningless. It's not challenging. They're working with people they maybe don't like per se, and they're continuing to do it, because there's some reward. It's the paycheck. It's the pension. It's the this, it's the that. So they continue on
412
::Jeremy Van Wert: doing the work.
413
::Jeremy Van Wert: even though there's really no purpose that they personally see in it. And it was not long after that that I made some pretty strong changes in my own career. But you know you've you've done this research in this, this concept of of burnout and moral injury. And you've been asking me throughout the year a number of questions about how.
414
::Jeremy Van Wert: how, how would you work with this? How would you help people that are involved in this? Can you talk a little bit about this concept.
415
::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, yeah, I'd be glad to. And and again, this is one of those areas where it's just, you know, II don't know how my mind was drawn to this topic. But what I saw was
416
::Jim Tabuchi: especially during Covid, especially during
417
::Jim Tabuchi: you know. Race protests through things like, you know, talking about defunding the police and and first responders, having issues and all that. I just kind of
418
::Jim Tabuchi: put 2 and 2 together and and made
419
::Jim Tabuchi: a thousand and to to say that this is prevalent. It's all over the place. And I started seeing this in in nursing and in education, in law enforcement, and every place where you started seeing people who just wanted out.
420
::Jim Tabuchi: for whatever reason
421
::Jim Tabuchi: and and the whole idea of you know you have this little boy who who grows up wanting to be a police officer, and and and sees that you know bright, shiny car. And the this, you know, beautiful uniform, and having the belt and all that, and helping people right? Goes through and and gets their education.
422
::Jim Tabuchi: Goes to the Academy actually becomes a sworn police officer. And then, you know.
423
::Jim Tabuchi: you know, people start talking about defunding the police and being afraid of police and and being fearful, for you know those who are there to really protect and serve the public right. And since then, you see, you know, these police officers is saying, why am I doing this? This isn't what I got into
424
::Jim Tabuchi: right. This is why I got into police services. You know I chose to be in this, to be in in service to the public. And and now the public sees me as an enemy. Right? You see this in in places like nursing, where the whole idea was to to help their patients to help the patients and the families, and being subjected to, you know.
425
::Jim Tabuchi: having to go to work and Ppe, and being sheltered and isolated from their patients, and causing, you know, during Covid having
426
::Jim Tabuchi: to to shun the families from being able to see their very sick patients. They're there and having to assist these patients go through in some cases. Their transition into death. In in loneliness. And and you know nurses, seeing you know this isn't what I signed up for.
427
::Jim Tabuchi: You know.
428
::Jim Tabuchi: teachers who feel unsupported and who had to go into work and kind of risk their lives, even during Covid. And and and again saying, This isn't what I signed up for, right? So so really that that whole sense of moral injury being prevalent in the workplace and and in people's lives. And and it was
429
::Jim Tabuchi: kind of misdiagnosed right. People called it Ptsd. They called it burnout, and and the whole idea of you know what? Yeah, they're burned out. Let me send a bouquet of flowers to them
430
::Jim Tabuchi: right? And and that'll make them feel good. No, that's not it.
431
::Jim Tabuchi: right? It's it's not this band aid solution to their moral injury.
432
::Jim Tabuchi: You really have to get back to
433
::Jim Tabuchi: where they are. Why did they choose this, this area of profession, or the the work that they they do? Because in some way that represented the values that they have in life, and you've got to get back those values which means understanding the sort, the stories, the success stories having those really at the tip of your fingers so that you can say yes. I got into this profession to do good, and here these are some examples of where I have really done good
434
::Jim Tabuchi: in in my career and my life right? And I wanna do not one more of these. I wanna do hundreds or thousands more of these, so that I can become this order of these positive examples that are congruent and and app absolutely true with the values that I hold in my life.
435
::Jim Tabuchi: And and, by the way, you know
436
::Jim Tabuchi: th, the this idea of of doing jobs?
437
::Jim Tabuchi: that that you know you're clocking in and clocking out, II I've actually thought that you can find meaning in whatever job that you have.
438
::Jim Tabuchi: It doesn't matter what job you have. You can find meaning in in that job. I've been tempted to, you know. Almost go out and volunteer like on a weekly basis. Right?
439
::Jim Tabuchi: Go and and work at a at a fast food restaurant and work in the back and flipping burgers. I know that I can find meaning in that job.
440
::Jim Tabuchi: I don't know what it is, but it probably has to do with
441
::Jim Tabuchi: uplifting people that I work around. of being of service to others.
442
::Jim Tabuchi: II don't think it.
443
::Jim Tabuchi: I think I could find meaning in whatever job that I could that I could find.
444
::Jim Tabuchi: And and part of that might be. Yeah, going around week by week and actually volunteering to do work
445
::Jim Tabuchi: and and finding meaning, and maybe writing up
446
::Jim Tabuchi: on what that meaning is in in some and seemingly meaningless jobs.
447
::Jim Tabuchi: I do believe you can find meaning wherever you go.
448
::Jeremy Van Wert: just trying to take this all in quite honestly, because we're we're living in this world right now, that is so full of strife, and there's so full of anxiety and and hatred and fear.
449
::Jeremy Van Wert: And II certainly am seeing a lot of this in the people that I am treating right now, and relationships being affected by
450
::Jeremy Van Wert: by things that would have been trivial 40 years ago, but seem very, very
451
::Jeremy Van Wert: present and weighty today, because of the change of the
452
::Jeremy Van Wert: the lens of what is important today versus what was important. It seemed about 40 years ago. And so I'm I'm I'm watching this world of people that
453
::Jeremy Van Wert: seem highly highly affected by things that maybe
454
::Jeremy Van Wert: maybe aren't as weighty as they make them themselves. Some of these issues are very important and and but also there's a an assignment of meaning and severity to many of these things that that our society is dealing with right now.
455
::Jeremy Van Wert: that may give me an example. As one of those. Right? So we're I'm I'm talking about. In a in a polite way, our political landscape the the red versus blue, the the social strife that has been present for very, very vividly for the past 3 years.
456
::Jeremy Van Wert: Iii sense of. If this person votes for that person, then this person supports people I hate, and therefore this person is a bad person.
457
::Jeremy Van Wert: and you focus really highly on the higher aspirations of a human being. really, far above the thing that I was just talking about.
458
::Jeremy Van Wert: Are are, what effect are you seeing of the kind of overheated social, political, and class based kind of dialogue that's going on right now in in people. How's it affect? How are you seeing it affect people?
459
::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. So so first of all, II have to let you know. Right? I am not political.
460
::Jim Tabuchi: I I've been asked to run for office. A few times right? I've always very politely said, no, that's not for me. I have more personally within my family. I've told them. If I ever talk about running for political office.
461
::Jim Tabuchi: take me in the backyard and shoot me
462
::Jim Tabuchi: and and there's a reason for that right.
463
::Jim Tabuchi: I believe in being who I am.
464
::Jim Tabuchi: and I believe that.
465
::Jim Tabuchi: II am. You know you could argue. I'm I'm a pleaser in in a lot of different ways.
466
::Jim Tabuchi: And I don't like the idea of
467
::Jim Tabuchi: almost 50% of people not liking you
468
::Jim Tabuchi: because of a letter that goes behind your name
469
::Jim Tabuchi: or a color that you're associated with right in the grand scheme of things
470
::Jim Tabuchi: that shouldn't matter. It's just that we're all here as people.
471
::Jim Tabuchi: and if my whole mission in life is to have a positive impact on everybody that II encounter.
472
::Jim Tabuchi: it really doesn't matter what your affiliation is.
473
::Jim Tabuchi: I'm I'm here to have that positive impact with whoever I encounter.
474
::Jim Tabuchi: And and so yeah, you maybe I tend to stay up higher, higher level.
475
::Jim Tabuchi: Which then means that I'm not kind of in the fray of things. and and yet II do believe that there is a lot of room for
476
::Jim Tabuchi: lot of just civil discussion and and having containers that are there safe containers for people to discuss feelings openly right?
477
::Jim Tabuchi: And and to share in a safe environment.
478
::Jim Tabuchi: disparate views on things.
479
::Jeremy Van Wert: So where are you going from here? What are you doing
480
::Jim Tabuchi: here? so so like, I said, my focus is on
481
::Jim Tabuchi: that II think I've acquired a lot of knowledge and and experience right through my first 18 years of education, my second year, 18 years of corporate life, my third 18 years of helping people and mentoring.
482
::Jim Tabuchi: And I think my
483
::Jim Tabuchi: next 18. Is it my last 18? I don't know. Is really taking that and and
484
::Jim Tabuchi: and giving that away in in a in a much bigger and a much broader way.
485
::Jim Tabuchi: So the things that I've done with individuals being able to take that to. You know, thousands of people. At this point II developed this this idea of.
486
::Jim Tabuchi: I wanted to impact the lives of a million kids.
487
::Jim Tabuchi: and and that Milligan is really important because it causes you to do things in a different way. Right? So, for example, if I'm I'm the drum core director for the mandarin. That means I get to impact 150 plus kids per year. Right? Let's do the math right.
488
::Jim Tabuchi: A 1 million
489
::Jim Tabuchi: divided by a hundred 50 means that I would have to operate for 6,666 years
490
::Jim Tabuchi: to impact a million people. So I can't do that.
491
::Jim Tabuchi: I have to think bigger. Right? I could think now to being on the Board of Directors for Dci, Drunk Corner national. And in that case impacting the lives of 5,000 kids. So now let's do that math.
492
::Jim Tabuchi: That means I'd have to do that for 200 years
493
::Jeremy Van Wert: in order to impact a million people. I'm getting closer. So I'm getting closer right. But still I don't have 200 years to live.
494
::Jim Tabuchi: So what that means that I have to start impacting. I don't know on the order of 100,000 people per year. and that just causes you to think differently.
495
::Jim Tabuchi: What that means is that II need to think in a more systematic way, I have to think about empowering others, to impact the lives of others and and to really think in in that bigger and broader way.
496
::Jim Tabuchi: 1 one example is, I have. I call it my trillion dollar challenge
497
::Jim Tabuchi: for myself right? And that's to create or to help
498
::Jim Tabuchi: create young people who can become millionaires in their lives.
499
::Jim Tabuchi: And if I can help a million young people to become a millionaires in their lives.
500
::Jim Tabuchi: That's a trillion dollars.
501
::Jim Tabuchi: You just do the math right? So impacting a trillion dollars of wealth that way.
502
::Jim Tabuchi: Not that I want to see any of it.
503
::Jim Tabuchi: Actually, I don't want any of it right? I don't want my 1% or anything like that, that you know wealth managers take in. II don't want any of that. But what I want to do is to figure out how how I can impact the lives of a million people.
504
::Jim Tabuchi: To become millionaires in their lives. Right? Just forces me to think a lot differently.
505
::Jim Tabuchi: So so that that's where my mind is right now
506
::Jim Tabuchi: is is now how to impact more people
507
::Jim Tabuchi: in in bigger and broader ways
508
::Jim Tabuchi: don't know how to do it yet. So if you have any ideas, let me know. Great.
509
::Jeremy Van Wert: Yeah, I'm working on it, too. So so just talk about money for a second here. And th. There's this
510
::Jeremy Van Wert: Abrahamic kind of Biblical concept that money is the root of all evil. I think that is, that is a specific
511
::Jeremy Van Wert: Scripture. Among many that is really misinterpreted a misunderstood in every single way, because all obviously wonderful things happen based upon people who handle wealth in a positive way, for the positive reasons for the right ways and everything like that. So what is real wealth, what is sustainable wealth, and and what? How is it that people should be thinking about money.
512
::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah, wealth, wealth is time.
513
::Jim Tabuchi: Right? Think about it. The the thing that we we all have a finite amount of is our time. that's it, and you can't buy time
514
::Jim Tabuchi: right? So what wealth provides you with is the ability to use your time in whatever way you want. and and to do the most and the best good. That's all. It is
515
::Jim Tabuchi: right
516
::Jim Tabuchi: to to use wealth for big, for bad things, or to hoard wealth. or to think that that's gonna be the biggest driver in your life. No
517
::Jim Tabuchi: wealth, just all it does is it buys you time? That's it.
518
::Jim Tabuchi: II had this opportunity. So so after graduate school, II went to the University of Washington, up in Seattle. I was highly recruited. After graduating
519
::Jim Tabuchi: from this little company up in Washington, called Microsoft. Okay.
520
::Jim Tabuchi: little company. You've heard of them right as we created to go there,
521
::Jim Tabuchi: and and and actually, II went, and I interviewed there went for several on site interviews at their their headquarters, and I saw in the offices treadmills, stationary bicycles. 1 one manager had a pull out bed that was unmade in his office. Right?
522
::Jim Tabuchi: They said, what's this all about?
523
::Jim Tabuchi: And they said, the cafeteria is free. So you have all the food that you want for breakfast. Lunch, dinner. However, you want. You never leave have to leave here
524
::Jim Tabuchi: alright. So they were. They were basically creating these people who would work.
525
::Jim Tabuchi: you know, 8,000 20 HA week that fit directly with my personality.
526
::Jim Tabuchi: If I had joined Microsoft at that time
527
::Jim Tabuchi: I would have been one of those workaholics, and would have never left right. My car would have never left the
528
::Jim Tabuchi: the parking lot there. I would have been there with Bill Gates all that time. That was probably, you know, some people can look at that, and they can say, You know, Jim. That was probably a hundred 1 million dollar.
529
::Jim Tabuchi: maybe a billion dollar mistake that you made by not taking that position right. But but I knew at that time
530
::Jim Tabuchi: I would not have been married, I would not have had my kids I would have been a slave to the company, and my life trajectory would have been completely different. Right?
531
::Jim Tabuchi: So I chose not to take that position actually. And and and yet I still was able to make enough money in a fairly young age
532
::Jim Tabuchi: to be able to buy my freedom. which then allows me to go on and do bigger and better things.
533
::Jim Tabuchi: No regrets. Right May. Maybe I would have owned the I would have owned the Oakland A's at this point, or something like that, right?
534
::Jim Tabuchi: But that wasn't. That wasn't my approach right
535
::Jeremy Van Wert: well. And and you've made decisions that have allowed you to act based on your values and
536
::Jeremy Van Wert: help the people that you feel most passionate about helping and to have the freedom to move around in the world and do things that actually create a greater sense of health for you.
537
::Jeremy Van Wert: You were looking at that decision based upon your just emotional, long term health. Do I want money, or do I want children? Do I want a family? Do I want
538
::to be a Titan of industry that lives in an office.
539
::Jim Tabuchi: Right? Right? Yeah. And that was that was an early decision. I think I was probably what? 22 years old at the time.
540
::Jim Tabuchi: and and certainly the lure of going to this, you know.
541
::Jim Tabuchi: Great company, that's, you know, just starting out. The lure was definitely there.
542
::Jim Tabuchi: yeah, II I passed on that opportunity with with no regrets.
543
::Jeremy Van Wert: So what I'd like to do now is
544
::Jeremy Van Wert: Jim, would you mind just talking directly to the viewer, to to the person who's watching this, and who's been listening to all of this through?
545
::Jeremy Van Wert: What is it that you would tell a person who is in their career trying to figure out where to go, maybe at the precipice of a major decision, or deciding what? Where they want to go with their future. What is it that you would tell people as a guidepost for how to move forward in their lives?
546
::Jim Tabuchi: Yeah. Yeah, sure, sure, I'd be glad to So so my biggest piece of advice would be to know what is your long-term mission
547
::Jim Tabuchi: right? What is your vision for your life. And and how do you see your life actually ending up? Right? Because that will put your.
548
::Jim Tabuchi: your, your, your ultimate lighthouse right. The the direction that you go from here on out will be based on that. Ii use that that example exercise of envisioning my own
549
::Jim Tabuchi: my own funeral right? And sitting in the pew and looking behind me in in the pews, and seeing you know whether 5 people were there, 50, where there 500 people there, you know how many people were there who? Who's there? Who's who's missing? Who's not there? And and ultimately, you know, as as the open mic happens. What are they saying about your life?
550
::Jim Tabuchi: Because that's the legacy that you want to leave
551
::Jim Tabuchi: and and really grappling with that understanding? What is your life legacy? And where do you want to go? Because then what happens after that is all of those life decisions that you make
552
::Jim Tabuchi: must be consistent with your life legacy.
553
::Jim Tabuchi: So in my case, right? If if my my whole idea is to have that positive impact on everybody that I encounter. What that means is that I'm forbidden by my own values of having a negative impact on somebody.
554
::Jim Tabuchi: which means that I can't lie, cheat, or steal with that person
555
::Jim Tabuchi: I have to uplift them. I have to provide coaching. I have to provide value for their life, because that's my life vision right, and I have to stay consistent with that. So so that'd be be my recommendation is really understand
556
::Jim Tabuchi: to that deep level of where your life is going and what your life is going to mean.
557
::Jim Tabuchi: and then just make your actions and all of your decisions. Be consistent with that.
558
::Jim Tabuchi: I hope that that helps
559
::Jeremy Van Wert: been so super helpful, and everything that you've you've told me throughout the many years
560
::Jim Tabuchi: has been really helpful in making sure that I'm staying on track with
561
::Jeremy Van Wert: what's real
562
::Jeremy Van Wert: as opposed to what's attractive and what's flashy. And you know it's been. It's been really helpful to just have you in the background
563
::Jeremy Van Wert: what I've called you at really pivotal times in my career. And it's this kind of advice that has really helped
564
::Jeremy Van Wert: form and shape the the decisions that I've made, and the steps that I have made, and the ways that I've recovered from things that have happened. And so just, you know, on a personal level. Thank you for always being there, and your constant patience.
565
::Jim Tabuchi: Well, you're welcome. You're welcome. I'm I'm glad that I can be here for you, and I'm glad that that I'm somebody that you'll call right.
566
::Jim Tabuchi: Because, as I say, it's I'm your mentor for life.
567
::Jeremy Van Wert: Well, II do feel really lucky for that. And I just I also wanted to just kind of clear a moment here for you to say anything that you had wanted to say here, that perhaps you didn't get a chance to say
568
::Jim Tabuchi: yeah. So so that's I. As I think about things in in a big way, right? I
569
::Jim Tabuchi: I I don't think in terms of the that the individual one-off situations. What I think about is, how can we? How can we do things in a much bigger way.
570
::Jim Tabuchi: And certainly one of the things that's kind of weighing on my mind right now is our mental health crisis
571
::Jim Tabuchi: right? And and to see that huh!
572
::Jim Tabuchi: A big part of mental health issues come about from early childhood trauma.
573
::Jim Tabuchi: And
574
::Jim Tabuchi: to see what is it that we can do in a in a very, very big way, right to either
575
::Jim Tabuchi: cause trauma to not happen to to eliminate trauma early in life. to address it early
576
::Jim Tabuchi: to free that ball and chain but to address it
577
::Jim Tabuchi: in in in a very big way. Right? So I know that you know trauma can be a a address, and mental illness can be impacted on a on a one on one therapy basis. And that's a huge part of what you do.
578
::Jim Tabuchi: But I think about the millions of people who don't have access
579
::Jim Tabuchi: and and what can be done for them? Ii don't know the answer. I I'm sure if there was a simple answer that was out there. It would be done already. But that's that's where my mind gravitates, too. It's how do we help?
580
::Jim Tabuchi: How do we help the hundreds of thousands of people in a very big way?
581
::Jim Tabuchi: Ii think of that, even in terms of things like literacy, right? That literacy is combated a a lot today on a one. On one basis, you have an individual who's reading to an a child and helping them to become literate. But but is is there a different dynamic? Is there a different way where, you know, we can address it for millions of kids
582
::Jim Tabuchi: at a time.
583
::Jim Tabuchi: So so that's where my mind is right now. It's it's helping to be part of a solution to some very big big challenges that we have
584
::Jim Tabuchi: in a very big way.
585
::Jim Tabuchi: because I know that the the individual one on one way, while it helps that individual doesn't help the masses.
586
::Jeremy Van Wert: We've gotten away in the way that our society is set up from the concept of strong communities.
587
::Jeremy Van Wert: the those communities
588
::Jeremy Van Wert: historically being the people that you live around. And that's we don't have that same connection to the people that we live around that we had
589
::Jeremy Van Wert: in Eon's past, and that lack of connection and community is a lot of what creates what you're talking about here, this sense of
590
::Jeremy Van Wert: what is at its core, a difficulty in belonging, because a lot of those wounds that you are talking about childhood wounds and these sorts of things. They are often corrected historically.
591
::Jeremy Van Wert: going back through a sense that you belong just as you are.
592
::Jeremy Van Wert: that you are okay. The way that you are you might be different. You might have what we call schizophrenia these days. You might just look different or or be different in some way, but they're
593
::Jeremy Van Wert: when you are accepted. The way that you are. It goes a long way in just feeling. Okay. And there is a
594
::Jeremy Van Wert: there is a strong sense that
595
::Jeremy Van Wert: that there's a strong lack of community that that's happening. There's a strong
596
::Jeremy Van Wert: sense of
597
::Jeremy Van Wert: focus on
598
::Jeremy Van Wert: on success and perfection as defined in a very specific kind of way, and that creates the kind of isolation that
599
::Jeremy Van Wert: it pushes people into
600
::Jeremy Van Wert: over, identifying with negative aspects of their life and their
601
::Jeremy Van Wert: their history.
602
::Jeremy Van Wert: Instead of being accepted and feeling a sense of forward momentum and
603
::Jeremy Van Wert: feeling. A a true, loving sense of community community is incredibly important for a human being. So when you're talking about the macro sense of what can we do to improve the lives of people
604
::Jeremy Van Wert: in a big way, you know, individual therapy and music, and
605
::Jeremy Van Wert: these various different things are definitely helpers of that. But community is critical.
606
::Jeremy Van Wert: Yeah, reading that, I know that you have done a lot in trying to create great communities.
607
::Jim Tabuchi: Yes, I've I've I've I've tried
608
::Jim Tabuchi: And yet and yet they're small pockets. right? I just think that you know where I'm at in my life right now. It's it's that I don't
609
::Jim Tabuchi: want to only deal with the ones at the tens, but really help in the thousands or the tens of thousands. So that's where my mind is right now. And and that's really this fundamental shift that I have in my mind. And and it really is the 18 year cycles that I go. And it's it's very appropriate that last week was my sixtieth birthday, right? Because that triggers, my next 18 going forward.
610
::Jim Tabuchi: And and so that's where my mind is. And if and if it really is communicating creating communities, then it's not a. It's not creating a community of 10. But how do you create a community of thousands or or plant seeds where communities can be built with thousands and thousands of people
611
::Jim Tabuchi: that that's that's where my mind is going.
612
::Jim Tabuchi: And hence I'm really thinking in terms of big and bold at this point, and that's where the whole idea of my title as a serial social entrepreneur comes about.
613
::Jim Tabuchi: because now I know some of the problems, and I know some of the solutions. But now, how do you take that into a a very, very big way.
614
::Jeremy Van Wert: Jim? Thank you so much for being a part of this, and for sharing your your knowledge and your just, base, level wisdom in in this. It's really appreciated by by me and all of the people who are going to listen to this out there. I just really appreciate you.
615
::Jim Tabuchi: Well, thank you. Thank you for having me here and and and stay tuned. I don't know if I'm gonna come up with any solutions in my lifetime. But you know I'll be trying.
616
::Jeremy Van Wert: If you do come back and we'll talk about it.
617
::Jim Tabuchi: I'd be glad to. I'd love to
618
::Jeremy Van Wert: thank you for listening everybody. I'm Jeremy Van Wert, the CEO of high altitude. Mind, set now go, be something great.
